I know I said NPR in the OP but I really mean the whole spate of recent news on the JW child abuse cover up issue including what was aired on PBS.
Island Man
JoinedPosts by Island Man
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Has anyone heard any Watchtower PR spin or censorship advisory announcement at the kingdom hall regarding the child abuse story on NPR?
by Island Man ini remember some years ago when barbara did an expose of the child abuse issue on one of the networks, watchtower used the elders to inform the congregations not to view the program that was to be aired.
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after this recent expose on npr, has there been any official watchtower release read as an announcement at the kingdom hall?.
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CO has been coming to my door. Would like 1 or 2 solid and easy arguments.
by The Laser Viking ini am 6th generation.
i have been out for a few years.. back story on the situation:.
i had a co come by while going door-to-door in the neighborhood.
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Island Man
Another "proof" that the C.O. is likely to bring up is the house to house preaching work of JWs. 'Who else is doing that?' he may ask.
You simply tell him that there is not a single account in all the bible portraying Jesus or the apostles systematically going from house to house preaching to people at the door. All the narratives describe public preaching - the open outdoors, the marketplace, the synagogue, the temple, etc.
Interestingly, Jesus' own words at John 18:20 refutes the Watchtower suggestion that he ever went house to house preaching to people at their door.:
"Jesus answered him: “I have spoken to the world publicly. I always taught in a synagogue and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret. " - John 18:20
Jesus' direction to his apostles about greeting the household had nothing to do with preaching from house to house, Jesus was schooling them on finding a suitable place of lodging in the village or city that they went in to preach publicly. This is why he tells them not to transfer from house to house - he was telling them not to abandon the hospitality of a modest home owner to go to a more comfortable house.
The showing of hospitality was a privilege in bible times and this is why Jesus told his followers that in whichever village or city they entered, search out who is deserving [of the privilege of being their hosts] and stay there (i.e. lodge there as a guest) until they leave. Jesus did the same thing when he traveled from city to city. He would always stay at the home of someone. You can point to the account of when he went to Jericho and he found Zachaeus to be deserving of the privilege of hosting him. Others in the crowed took offence at Zachaeus - a tax collector - being given this privilege. (Luke 19:1-10)
The passing reference in Acts where Paul speaks about teaching and preaching from "house to house" is likely referring to him visiting one congregation after another. He traveled from congregation to congregation all of which convened in the private houses of believers. Thus his statement of teaching from house to house is essentially another way of saying he taught from congregation to congregation.
But the Greek text actually just says "kata oikon" ("according to house") and may simply mean "in private homes". The exact same Greek expression is used at Acts 2:46 where the NWT translates it as "in private homes". So the earlier Acts reference to the apostles preaching in the temple and "from house to house" (NWT) simply means they preached in the temple and in the homes of believers - at early congregation meetings where they met for prayer and the taking of meals together. (Acts 2:46)
All christian denominations are involved in preaching but not all use the method of house to house and the bible does not mandate the specific method of house to house. So it is dishonest of Watchtower and JWs to suggest that only they are involved in the preaching work. Additionally, the bible shows that, contrary to what JWs claim, not all christians are called to the work of being a formal public evangelizer:
"And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers," - Ephesians 4:11
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CO has been coming to my door. Would like 1 or 2 solid and easy arguments.
by The Laser Viking ini am 6th generation.
i have been out for a few years.. back story on the situation:.
i had a co come by while going door-to-door in the neighborhood.
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Island Man
Tell him that a careful examination of the history of the organization causes you to believe that it matches those Jesus warned not to go after, at Luke 21:8.
What you can do is read Luke 21:8 from the RSV and then draw to his attention that one of the early publications of JWs that contained many false end time predictions was a volume of Studies In the Scriptures entitled "The Time Is At Hand!"
Tell him you are very convinced that Watchtower matches Luke 21:8 and so you cannot in good conscience follow the organization when Jesus told his followers not to go after such ones. Here's a video worth watching to help you see what I'm saying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSYBUifr7Y0
Expect him to misuse Proverbs 4:18 to give the usual Watchtower propaganda cliche about the light getting brighter. Research the real meaning of Proverbs 4:18 so you will be prepared to refute this tired, worn out cliche. You can also respond to it by reading for him 2 Timothy 3:7 and Ephesians 4:14 and telling him that those texts more accurately describe the situation with JWs.
Expect him to also use Acts 1:6,7 where the apostles are asking Jesus if he's restoring the kingdom at this time, to suggest that the apostles had wrong expectations and were not condemned and the situation is the same with JWs. You can respond by telling him the situation is not the same with JWs. First, the apostles were not yet anointed with the holy spirit - the spirit of truth - so they had a good excuse for not fully understand all things. By contrast, the JW leadership has always claimed to be anointed during the times they taught falsehoods. Secondly, the apostles did not go throughout Jerusalem confidently publishing a false message about the kingdom being restored at that time, No. They humbly came to Jesus and asked him a question. This is very different from Watchtower confidently publishing its false predictions far and wide.
Expect him to also use an argument like this:
"Well who else has the truth? Where else can we go? Who is Jehovah's organization today? Jehovah has always had an organization so, if not JWs then who else?".
This is meant to in effect say that you should stick with JWs just because you can't think of or find a better alternative and/or that even though JWs have faults they're the least evil of all the churches in error.
The way to refute this is to simply ask him which organization Jehovah was using during the centuries since the apostasy and before C.T. Russel's time. He would have to admit that there was no God-approved organization on earth that time. Watchtower said as much in a recent study edition studied a few weeks ago at the Kingdom Hall.
Once this point has been made you then tell him that since true christians existed among the wheat for all those centuries without there being a God-approved organization then it is very plausible that there is still no true organization on earth today - only individual true christians existing in the midst of wheat. You can then mention Jesus' parable of the wheat and the weeds and mention how the wheat grow together with the weeds until the end, that Jesus never mentioned the wheat being transplanted to a different field free of weeds and growing there for a while before being harvested. Jesus mentioned the wheat being removed from the field (which pictures earth) to the storehouse (heaven). This shows that the separating comes at the very end when Jesus judges the wicked and brings the righteous anointed christians to heaven.
Mention that an honest reading of the parable indicates that there will not be any true organization just erroneous organizations with wheat and weeds in them, and the separating of the wheat and the weeds clearly comes at the very end during armageddon/great tribulation. Jesus never mentioned a restoration before the end, neither did Paul, when he spoke of the coming apostasy and the man of lawlessness.
He will probably retort by citing texts in Daniel that talk about the righteous roving about and true knowledge becoming abundant in the time of the end. The way you refute this is simple. You just state that many individual true christians are getting an accurate understanding of the bible and leaving Watchtower and other false religious organizations. Additionally, since we don't know exactly when the end will come there's no way of saying for certain that that text is undergoing fulfillment in the present. It may still be a text that is to be fulfilled further in the future before the end comes.
Tell him that Watchtower is stressing organization while the bible is not and the reason why Watchtower stresses organization is because they want to keep themselves relevant and keep all JWs dependent on them and giving them their time and money to keep the organization afloat. The organization is twisting scripture to serve its own interests.
Tell him that contrary to what Watchtower self-servingly says, a hierarchical organization headed by a small group of men is not required to accomplish the global preaching work. Jehovah and Jesus can see every corner of the globe and know exactly where the message needs to be preached. And so they can do all the organizing in heaven and implement on earth by using angels and holy spirit to direct individual true christians throughout the globe to preach when and where they wish. This is what the book of Acts shows. Jesus used holy spirit and angels to direct the preaching work - not a hierarchical organization of men.
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Has anyone heard any Watchtower PR spin or censorship advisory announcement at the kingdom hall regarding the child abuse story on NPR?
by Island Man ini remember some years ago when barbara did an expose of the child abuse issue on one of the networks, watchtower used the elders to inform the congregations not to view the program that was to be aired.
.
after this recent expose on npr, has there been any official watchtower release read as an announcement at the kingdom hall?.
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Island Man
I remember some years ago when Barbara did an expose of the child abuse issue on one of the networks, Watchtower used the elders to inform the congregations not to view the program that was to be aired.
After this recent expose on NPR, has there been any official Watchtower release read as an announcement at the kingdom hall?
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Are we pro-shunning or against it?
by Simon injust to continue my theme about religious freedom and how we approach criticizing the wts, i've also been thinking about 'shunning'.. i think shunning is the most unifying complaint that most ex-members of religious groups that practice it have in common.
it is the layer that runs under every other complaint - whatever the reason for leaving it seems "... and i was shunned" can be added to it as the final rap on the charge sheet.. of course it seems like a no-brainer to many of us and we hardly ever stop to really think about it - shunning is bad, the watchtower believes in shunning therefore the watchtower is bad.
they need to stop it.
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Island Man
Personally, I'm against shunning. And by shunning I'm referring to strict shunning as practiced by JWs, as opposed to merely avoiding someone who you prefer not to socialize with, but whom you will still casually greet and exchange a few words with out of basic human respect, should your paths happen to cross.
Speak to someone bad in a less than friendly manner, reminding them of what they are doing or have done wrong and the need to change or make redress. Do that instead of shunning them. To me, strict shunning as practiced by JWs, is both childish and inhuman.
I also think the punishment of solitary confinement is like the government's version of shunning, and I'm also very much against it. Humans are social beings and such treatments are inhumane.
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How the Watchtower organization does, in fact, claim to be an inspired prophet.
by Island Man indraw any jw's attention to watchtower's history of false predictions and invariably, somewhere down the line of the conversation, the jw will tell you that watchtower never claimed to be an inspired prophet and therefore cannot be accused of being a false prophet.
but is it really true that watchtower has never claimed to be an inspired prophet?.
technically speaking, the answer is yes - i think (if i'm wrong i'd love to see the quote).
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Island Man
"My other and probably biggest pet peeve of mine is this. If the organization truly admits to not being inspired by holy spirit, how is it that they remind us 3 to 10 times a meeting that everything we get comes from Jehovah (literature, counsel, elders, etc) but only reminds us of the not-inspired every so many years, when they are in hot water?"
Exactly! They are psychological manipulators, manipulating JWs into treating the organization like its an inspired prophet while at the same time giving them explicit statements to the contrary so the JW can rationalize in his conscious mind that Watchtower denies being an inspired prophet and he does not believe that they are. Watchtower is essentially hijacking the JWs' subconscious mind while appeasing and deceiving their conscious mind. To the JWs' subconscious mind, Watchtower says: "We're inspired prophets and you had better treat us as such!" But to their conscious mind they say: "We don't claim to be inspired prophets so don't worry that we're false prophets when you see our teachings or predictions fail." What a mind trap the JWs are in!
I once heard a speaker at a convention, while speaking about the counsel in the Watchtower literature, nonchalantly refer to it as ". . . what Jehovah inspired the brothers to write in the literature . . .". No one in the audience batted an eyelid at his statement and there was no hint of subdued murmuring as usually happens when a speaker says something remarkable, funny or clearly in error. Perhaps he didn't really mean to use the word inspired. Perhaps it was just a slip - a Freudian slip born of a subconscious mind that already esteems Watchtower literature as being inspired of God.
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How the Watchtower organization does, in fact, claim to be an inspired prophet.
by Island Man indraw any jw's attention to watchtower's history of false predictions and invariably, somewhere down the line of the conversation, the jw will tell you that watchtower never claimed to be an inspired prophet and therefore cannot be accused of being a false prophet.
but is it really true that watchtower has never claimed to be an inspired prophet?.
technically speaking, the answer is yes - i think (if i'm wrong i'd love to see the quote).
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Island Man
Great quotes, Splash! -
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How the Watchtower organization does, in fact, claim to be an inspired prophet.
by Island Man indraw any jw's attention to watchtower's history of false predictions and invariably, somewhere down the line of the conversation, the jw will tell you that watchtower never claimed to be an inspired prophet and therefore cannot be accused of being a false prophet.
but is it really true that watchtower has never claimed to be an inspired prophet?.
technically speaking, the answer is yes - i think (if i'm wrong i'd love to see the quote).
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Island Man
Draw any JW's attention to Watchtower's history of false predictions and invariably, somewhere down the line of the conversation, the JW will tell you that Watchtower never claimed to be an inspired prophet and therefore cannot be accused of being a false prophet. But is it really true that Watchtower has never claimed to be an inspired prophet?
Technically speaking, the answer is yes - I think (if I'm wrong I'd love to see the quote). So far as I'm aware they have never explicitly stated that they're an inspired prophet. But here's the thing: communication is not always direct and explicit. A person can deliberately communicate an idea to you in an indirect manner without speaking explicitly. This might be done, for example, through the use of insinuations.
Watchtower is aware of this. In fact, Watchtower uses this very principle of indirect communication to hold Satan guilty of disparaging God's motives. Watchtower claims that Satan communicated to Eve the idea that God lied to her and that he is selfishly withholding the benefits of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad from her and her husband. Satan never explicitly told Eve that God is a liar. Yet, Watchtower interprets his words to Eve as insinuating as much and on that basis JWs say that Satan proved to be a slanderer who disparaged God's character and motive. So if Satan can be guilty of saying something merely by insinuating it, then why can't the same be said of Watchtower? Doesn't the Watchtower organization insinuate that it's an inspired prophet?
Yes, it does. Watchtower claims to be the channel that God is using at this time. There are multiple instances in their literature, both old and new, where they clearly communicate the idea that God is today directing his people through the organization. They have even explicitly referred to themselves as being God's modern day prophet! They will only deny the qualification of "inspired" being added to the mix. No JW can honestly deny that the organization is a collective prophet of God. They will only deny that it is, or ever claims to be, an inspired prophet.
But here's the thing: The organization also touts itself as being God's "spirit-directed organization". To be inspired is to be directed by God's spirit. So if one claims to be spirit directed, he is in fact saying, in other words, that he is inspired! How can anyone claim to be God's sole spirit-directed channel, appointed by God to teach and direct his people, and repeatedly use this claim to elicit unquestioning obedience and deference to him and his teachings, but then turn around and say he never claimed to be an inspired prophet? Such a person would have to either be dishonest or confused.
So in a round-about way the Watchtower organization is claiming to be an inspired prophet by arrogantly portraying itself as having a role that fits the profile of an inspired prophet. They are doing this to get JWs to treat them like a prophet - to give them the same obedience and deference that bible characters gave to the inspired prophets of the bible. They want the prestige and authority that inspired prophets of the bible had. But at the same time they explicitly deny that they're inspired prophets. Why? Because they don't want the scrutiny and the judgment that comes to those who prove to be false prophets. They say they are not inspired prophets so that they can later use those words to weasel out of being labeled a false prophet when their predictions and teachings prove them to be such. Watchtower is essentially being duplicitous for the sake of expedience.
Do not let JWs get away with saying that Watchtower never claimed to be an inspired prophet. That is a trivial and irrelevant technicality because Watchtower's own descriptions of itself in its literature over the years, matches the profile of an inspired prophet.
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How many JWs really believe the end will come "soon"?
by BU2B inthis topic has been on my mind lately.
i have been looking around at jws and wondering how many truly believe the end is as near as they are told.
from my personal experience, i know that my parents fully believe the end is imminent and may come any time now.
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Island Man
I would guess that at least a third of them don't really believe the end will come in their lifetime - including even some who are openly saying that the end is so close.
Saying that the end is close is part of the JW doctrine line that all JWs must toe or risk being labeled as a spiritually weak ridiculer. So many JWs just give perfunctory voice to this position because it's the right thing to say as a JW.
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Island Man
"I thought if a person was baptized and was recognized as a publisher, that records of misconduct or DFing is suppose to be passed on to the following congregation to where the person moved to ?"
I think in this case - cases of pedophilia - the elders are probably instructed by Watchtower to not even mention this in introduction letters sent to other congregations. Watchtower's primary concern seems to be to keep such incidents as secret as possible so as to protect their clean image.